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« All-in, reopened betting - tournament vs cash game | Folding a winning hand! »

misdealed card becomes burn card

hell0!

 first i’d like to apologize for my bad english, my native language is swiss german, i hope, you can understand me.

following scene occured yesterday night in a single table sng:

it was self-dealining. the dealer threw one player’s holecard face up. Someone said ’Let’s make this the burn card and continue dealing’. No one objected. But after the deal was complete, the dealer didn’t put the face up card on the top of the deck - he left it face up on the table. During the the pre-flop betting round nobody requested to put it on top of the deck, so that it could take its function as a burn card.
At the end of the preflop round, the dealer burned the top card and started dealing the flop when several players yelled out:”stop, you must not burn a card”. they wanted to discard the third flop card and put the burn card face up. I said, that everything is alright the way it is, because the face card wasn’t on top of the deck, so it wasn’t a burn card. therefore the dealer is right to burn another card.
everybody besides the dealer disagreed with me.
later on, i found out, that they do it always like that. they just call the misdealed card a burn card, but they don’t use it as one, they keep them face up one the table. I think this is so, because almost nobody seems to actually understand why the top card of the deck has to be burned.

my question is: was it still right to claim that the top card should be burned? what do you think about this situation?

An answer would be very appreciated, as I’m still rather irritated.

This entry was posted on July 29, 2008 at 9:36 pm and is filed under Dealers Responsibilities, Errors, Partial Faults, Etc., Exposed Cards, Hand Discussion, Etc., Dealer Errors, Bad Flops, Etc., Uncategorized. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.

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6 Responses to “misdealed card becomes burn card”

  1. ChicagoMike says:
    July 29, 2008 at 11:01 pm

    A good reference on this is Roberts Rules, Section 5 Holdem, Rule 1, quoted as follows:

    1. If the first or second holecard dealt is exposed, a misdeal results. The dealer will retrieve the card, reshuffle, and recut the cards. If any other holecard is exposed due to a dealer error, the deal continues. The exposed card may not be kept. After completing the hand, the dealer replaces the card with the top card on the deck, and the exposed card is then used for the burncard. If more than one holecard is exposed, this is a misdeal and there must be a redeal.

    End Quote

    That pretty much sums up the most common procedure for the type of error you site. The exposed card SHOULD have been used as the burn card in this situation, IMO.

  2. g3rt says:
    July 29, 2008 at 11:08 pm

    ChicagoMike: Thank you very much for your answer. I completely agree with you, but what do you do if the dealer doesn’t use it as the burn card, while nobody requests to put the card on top of the deck?

  3. E1 says:
    July 30, 2008 at 12:37 am

    I agree with Mike.
    To answer your other question “why a top card has to be burned”: We burn cards to deter a form of cheating known as card marking. The top card is burned, so that players who might have been able to read markings on the back of that card during the previous round are less able to take advantage of that information. Until betting is over the card under the card to be burned is invisible and nobody can recognize any marks on its back.

    Knowledge of a burn card might be marginally useful, such as knowing there is one less Ace in the deck, but far less so than having it in play.

  4. ChicagoMike says:
    July 30, 2008 at 8:33 pm

    G3…

    Well if I understand your question, you’re asking what happens if you have COMPOUNDED MISTAKES…

    In other words we start off with an exposed card that was swapped for the burn card but it wasn’t used as the burn card.

    At that point then your rules for “bad flops” will apply…

    But the key really is to nip this in the bud and correct the error pre-flop because once you start compounding errors your problems with protesting players will start to multiply as you report…

    But my answer would be that if there is a follow-up mistake with an incorrect flop (i.e. the cards that are flopped are not the correct cards), then you should deal with that as a separate bad-flop issue and use the remedies for bad flops as they apply to the particular situation.

  5. zeekus22 says:
    August 17, 2008 at 4:39 pm

    I utilize TDA rule #27 for this situation. In flop games, exposure of one of the first two cards dealt is a misdeal. Players may be dealt two consecutive cards on the button. I don’t see a clarification of where the card was exposed so it would be hard to answer part I.

    On the second error there are many variations to solve bad flop problems. In this situation where the dealer wrongfully burned and has started bringing the flop and all cards are still face down on the layout it is reasonable for you to reconstruct or reverse engineer the situation by replacing the burn card with the card that was left face up on the layout and not placed on the deck as it was supposed to be. Then allow the wrongful burn card to become part of the flop as it was intended to be. Then take the third card off the deck and place it back onto the deck as it was intended to be your second burn card. Hence the first three cards off the deck (flop) would be restored.

    In the situation where the flop had been exposed face up on the layout I revert to the flop going back ruling. Reverse engineering a flop after it has been placed face up on the layout is not wise for two reasons. A) The order of the cards may have been compromised when the flop was spread. B) Once the players see the value of the cards face up regardless of what you do there will be unhappiness.

    That said, make the card left on the layout face up the burn card. Put the card that was wrongfully burned back into the stub with the bad flop. Shuffle, shuffle, strip, shuffle, cut, no burn, and bring the new flop. This way you still give the wrongful burn card a chance to be on the flop as it was intended while simultaneously NOT allowing the correct burn card to be part of the flop.

  6. TD1953 says:
    September 4, 2008 at 3:18 pm

    I agree with zeekus22 up to a point. If the third flop card can be identified with 100% certainty then, IMO, it should placed back on the deck as the next burn card. If not, then the reshuffle of the wrongly flopped cards (including the second burn) are placed in the stub and reshuffled.

    You are always going to have someone be unhappy in a situation like this and you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. As long as there is 100% certainty that the correct card was reverse engineered then I would opt for that route whether the flop was exposed or not.

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