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Mucking a hand whilst All-in!
Guys help me out with this one.
The most bizarre situation happened to me recently at my regular freezeout game at my local casino. Mid tournament I was chip leader. I raise it up with KQsuited late position. I get one caller who had limped from early position. I noticed that this gentlemen had been drinking heavily and was quite intoxicated. He was also the only player at the table to have a very healthy stack besides myself. Flop comes 7 high, 2 diamonds. He checks, i bet, he calls. Im thinking im pretty much done with the hand. Turn pairs the 7 on the board. We both check. River comes a blank and he goes all-in for 8000, into a pot of about 7000 - but then IMMEDIATELY mucks his cards. He then reaches to retrieve his cards. I tell him his hand is dead but call the director for a ruling. He rules that because he pushed all his chips in and declared all-in whilst doing so before he mucked meant his hand was still in play. Annoyed at the ruling I ponder why he did it in the first place. I came to the conclusion that the way he played the hand and that he had been drinking he had a busted flush draw. I could afford a call and the pot was huge so I make the call with King high. He says “im done, im done” and again mucks his cards. I slam down my cards thinking I have made an amazing call with King high. He again retrieves his cards and shows he had pocket 6’s and his hand is allowed to stand. I ask the questions:
- What is the ruling on him mucking his hand after declaring all-in?
- What is the ruling on him mucking when I called his all-in the retrieving his winning hand?
7 Responses to “Mucking a hand whilst All-in!”
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November 17, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Pod, IMO this guys hand should be dead…
He’s behaving, exactly as you say, like a drunk… mucking his hand TWICE… uttering verbal capitulations…
Now, it’s not “in the best interest of the game” to sustain a player who behaves like this.
Not to mention, how can we at all be certain WHAT his hand is???
Bust him out, send him home to sober up, that’s what I’d do.
My guess is that he’s a regular at this game and the management doesn’t want to offend him, but that’s a whole different matter far different than what the rules should be here.
November 18, 2008 at 1:26 pm
An all-in hand can’t be killed. It is the dealers responibility to make sure his hand doesn’t get mucked. His cards have to be tabled since he is all-in. This is an effort to avoid collusion. Floorperson made the right call.
November 19, 2008 at 4:07 am
hello,
I suppose when you say “mucked” you mean his cards touched the muck twice?
what if:
1) twice his hand didn’t touch the muck
2) he wasn’t drunk
???
GG
November 25, 2008 at 3:33 pm
the dealer should have killed the hands the second the guy released them, however, if the dealer did not, then the hand play and you need to yank the dealer. if the cards are clearly and undeniably identifiable.. i.e. they never went into the muck, then the cards need to play, especially in tournament, because where the drunk idiot’s chips go will have a direct effect on the tournament.
December 4, 2008 at 3:29 pm
This is a severe pet-peeve of mine.
Too many players say: “he mucked his cards” when in fact they mean that the player simply threw his cards away face down on the table.
This is actually a meaningless action if the cards do not touch the muck pile and do not cause another player to act behind them.
This simply means that their cards are now face down on the table and, in the case you cite, the action is on the only other player with live cards.
Now, according to the letter of the rule, if that player then acts the first player’s hand *could* be considered dead, but honestly his hand should be considered live and tabled face up if player #2 calls. If player #2 folds, then player #1 should be awarded the pot.
Again, this is assuming player #1’s hand never touched the muck pile. If it did, I would favor retrieving the hand if 100% identifiable. If it is not 100% identifiable, then it is dead.
A drunk player is still a valid player in a game while involved in a hand and should be afforded the protection of the rules and the concept of fair play in the same manner than an inexperienced player making the same mistake should be protected. After the hand is over, a decision can be made as to whether that player should be allowed to continue in the game or tournament.
In the situation you cite, if the player’s hand never touched the muck pile or is still 100% identifiable, then I would rule the hand live.
Throwing your cards face down on the table is not only not “mucking” them, it is not even necessarily folding them.
December 21, 2008 at 5:44 am
Wow. A real difference in opinion here in the responses.
However, the TDA rule is pretty clear. An all-in hand that is called shall be tabled and can not be killed. I don’t care if the guy is stinking drunk in last weeks clothes and is in dire need of a bath and it is in everyone’s best interest that this walking health hazard have his hand declared dead so that the favorites of their 6 senses (sight and smell) can return back to normal. The hand is live.
If the drunk guy is being a distraction or is trying to influence action by seemingly folding on purpose, give him a penalty. Then if he gives you any lip or continues to cause a problem you can remove him from the tournament on those grounds.
December 23, 2008 at 1:55 am
I still ask the question… how can anyone be certain, given the way this situation is described, that the cards are identifiable? It says the player “retrieves” his cards… from where?
Unless they’re 100% identifiable with zero question, how can they be anything but dead? Do we accept this guy’s representation as to what his hand is? And the burden isn’t on the house and dealer, IMO, given this behavior to save this guy. Players have to protect their own hand. Tossing your hand twice in what is defined as “mucking” and then self-retrieval is the antithesis of protecting your hand.