December 14, 2008 by ChicagoMike.

Interesting situation came up yesterday in the Kansas Championship. I was TD on the No-Limit mixed games tournament and in a round of No-Limit deuce-to-seven Kansas City Lowball the following happened:

 1) The starting hands were dealt out and the first round of betting was completed.

2) The dealer was forgetful and set the stub out of their hand on the table.

3) During some confusion either a mucked hand or some cards discarded (for draw replacement) out of sequence were hopelessly mixed into the stub. Further to that, when this dealer reached for the stub there was some confusion as to whether they may have inadvertently started mixing up the stub as though the round was over. All this occuring while players presumably were deciding which cards to toss.

4) When I was called over the top 15 or so of the stub cards looked pretty well intact, sitting on a less orderly set of cards.

5) I pointed to the “intact” set of cards and asked everyone if they had any doubt that this was indeed the original stub in it’s original order. Nobody was particularly certain that it was.

6) Add to this there were a few discards sitting away from the “stub mass”. When I asked the table about it, they were certain those were discards, but they were equally certain that at least some discards and/or mucked cards had found their way into this stub mass.

 Because we couldn’t ultimately be certain the correct original order of the stub I had decided to re-shuffle it. Correct?

The question in my mind was whether to add the small pile of known discards to the stub before the re-shuffle. What would you have done?

Ultimately, I did add ALL the discards to the stub… reason being that because some of the discards were already blended into it, that ALL the discards should be. If it had happened another way, where NONE of the discards had reached the stub, and the only thing had happened was a scrambling of the ORDER of the stub, I wouldn’t have added the discards, but because some discards were blended hopelessly into it, I decided it was better procedure to blend them all into it, re-shuffle, cut and deal the draw cards.

I haven’t found an exact rule on this… how would you have handled it ?

Posted in Fouled Decks, Missing Cards, etc., Fouled Hands, Lowball & Razz, Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc, Dealer Errors, Bad Flops, Etc. | Print | 1 Comment »

December 9, 2008 by Bravo228.

Rule #8 states that A player must be at his or her seat by the time all players have been dealt complete initial hands in order to have a live hand.  Players must be at their seat to call time.  So with that in mind, what does At Your Seat mean to you as a Tournament Director?  To me, it means the player must be sitting in their seat.  That way, there is no confusion as to what At Your Seat means.

Posted in Fouled Hands, Late Registration, Missing Players Etc, Official Rules & Guidelines, General, Empty Seats, Penalties, Clocks, Ejected Players, Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc, Seating & Moving Players | Print | 3 Comments »

December 2, 2008 by frenchflush.

Well … during a live freeroll tournament with NO DEALER (but a big sponsorized prize pool and a record 1240 players in day one we made resently) this situation happened:

Players A B & C involved in a 50,000 center pot (A all-in at the flop)

Players B & C involved in a 20,000 side pot (at the turn)

We are at the river:

B (150000) checks … C (100000) says “I’m all in!” … then after a short time muck his cards thinking B folded (?) and forgetting A (!) (remember: no dealer and the muck s in the middle of the table) … so B fold his (weak) hand (without touching the muck) pretending to win the side pot has the last player alive! So immediatly C announced his 2 cards to all the table and finded it into the muck (!?) B contested that and called for the “Floor”!

My decision was (I’m absolutely not sure to be right : that’s why I’m telling the story here):

C made 2 mistakes : mucking his hand and searching into the muck (in theory his hand is dead) but B should have called the floor before acting. Another detail: the hand of C was winning the side pot but A was winning the center pot.

Because the tournament of C was depending on my decision and because B didn’t called the floor : I declared C lost the side pot but could keep his extra all-in raise!

In other word: HOW THE HANDLE A PLAYER GOING ALL-IN AND MUCKING BEFORE ANY OPPONENT REACTION?

GG

Posted in All-In Bets; Re-Opening Betting, Side-Pots, Split Pots, Fouled Hands, Protecting Hand, Dealer Ruins Hand, Player Responsible, Incorrect Pot Awards, Chaos: Sloppy Mgmt of Tables & Tournament, Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc, Showdowns & Pot Awarding, Etiquette, Behavior, Play Procedures & Penalties | Print | 3 Comments »

November 19, 2008 by PurePoker.

Hi Guys,

been an avid reader of this blog for quite some time and thought I should post a couple of questions that I have run into over the last couple of months.

Guy in middle position declares All-In and places his remaining chips (about 10 pieces) on top of his cards and moves them towards the middle over the betting line. Guy on the Dealer button calls, Big-Blind calls as well, both have more chips. The bets are collected and the flop is layed out. While BB considers his options, suddenly the person all-in says: “Where are my cards?” The dealer realizes he has mucked the cards, because they layed on the wrong side of the betting line.
How would you rule?

Somebody on the table folds his cards so strongly, they fly into the cards of another player. The dealer cannot identify whoch cards where folded.
What is your ruling?

Somebody is playing aroung with his chips, holding a large amount in his hand. Suddenly he drops the chips in his hand and the fall into the stack of his neighbor. It is not possible to identify which chips belong to which player.
What should the TD do?

Thanks,
Denis
Pure Poker Lounge

Posted in Collusion, Cheating, Etc., Chip Counts of Pot & Opponents Stacks, Fouled Decks, Missing Cards, etc., Dealers Responsibilities, Errors, Partial Faults, Etc., Fouled Hands, All-In Bets; Re-Opening Betting, Side-Pots, Split Pots, Dealer Errors, Bad Flops, Etc., Etiquette, Behavior, Play Procedures & Penalties, Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc, Texas Holdem | Print | 2 Comments »

October 30, 2008 by thornny.

pls help,  came to the end of a hand,  two players left in hand,  each had the same hand,  easy  huh?? split pot??  then one player discovered he had been dealt three cards.  what happens???

Posted in Dealers Responsibilities, Errors, Partial Faults, Etc., Fouled Hands, All-In Bets; Re-Opening Betting, Side-Pots, Split Pots, Official Rules & Guidelines, General, Dealer Errors, Bad Flops, Etc. | Print | 2 Comments »

September 29, 2008 by al_78.

Situation came up the other day. Dealer thought there was no one left in the hand and awarded the pot to player A ,not realising there was still  player B with cards. All the cards were mucked except for player B’s. It was said player B’s cards were not in full view as he had his hands over them. Who gets the pot?

Posted in Dealers Responsibilities, Errors, Partial Faults, Etc., Protecting Hand, Dealer Ruins Hand, Player Responsible, Fouled Hands, Chaos: Sloppy Mgmt of Tables & Tournament, Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc, Dealer Errors, Bad Flops, Etc. | Print | 2 Comments »

August 17, 2008 by lnufnu.

I was dealing a rather large Texas Hold’em tournament the other night and I ran into a huge mistake that I made.  The scenario was as follows:

Blinds were 25-50 (rather early in the tournament).  Player A (seat 9) was under-the-gun and has pocket Queens and raises to a total of 300.  Player in seat 10 folds and Player B (seat 1) calls (Player B has pocket 7’s).  Everyone else folds and player in seat 8 says to Player A, “Oh, you won the pot!”  I, as the dealer, listening to what player in seat 8 said and totally forgetting that player B had called, moved all the chips to player A and threw all the remaining cards into the muck pile.  Player B says, “Hey, I called.  Why did you throw the rest of the cards into the muck pile?”  Realizing I had made a huge mistake and that legal action had already taken place I took all the cards, including those that were in the original muck card pile (since there was no way that I was able to determine what cards were what), re-shuffled, and brought out a burn card and the flop.  The flop included a 7 and Player A’s Queens were cracked.  Player A went all in and, of course, Player B called.  Player A was eliminated from the tournament.

Was I correct, regardless of human error?  If not, please tell me the correct way to correct this “MAJOR MISTAKE!!!”

Posted in Exposed Cards, Hand Discussion, Etc., Fouled Decks, Missing Cards, etc., Verbals, Gestures, & Actions: Bet Raise Fold, Dealers Responsibilities, Errors, Partial Faults, Etc., Fouled Hands, Incorrect Pot Awards, Dealer Errors, Bad Flops, Etc., Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc, Chaos: Sloppy Mgmt of Tables & Tournament, Misdeals | Print | 1 Comment »

August 7, 2008 by talisman.

Hello All,

First post here and would love some insight…Do other poker rooms have a specific rule that covers players being at the table for the duration of a hand to be eligible to win a pot?

Scenario — No laughing now….(cash game 5/5 NL 100-500 spread)Player A allin preflop with 9d10c called by Player B with KcKs. Pot size is about $200.

Both hands are tabled and dealer deals flop (lets say rags 2d 5d 5h) at which point Player A decides he cannot win and leaves the poker pit, and then the casino (exit is close by)…

Unobservant dealer is not even aware that the player has left, deals the turn (a diamond) and the river (another diamond)…and then ships the pot to Player B at which point it is noticed there are 4 diamonds on the board and the raggedy Player A 9d10c wouldve won the pot!

We have no specific Poker rule that states what happens but there is a Poker etiquette policy (which may or may not have any legal standing)which states players must be at the table for the duration of a hand to be eligible to win the pot.

We do have a get out of jail rule which says “In the event that a situation is not covered under the rules of Poker, then the casino managament will make a fair and equitable decision that protects the integrity of the game of Poker.

So Question……Who would win the pot?? Does a casino have a responsibility to keep the money that “wouldve” been won by Player A and make every effort to locate him.

Poker Supervisor decision was to give the pot to the only eligible Player at the table in this case was Player B even though he had the losing hand per se…The argument was that Player A had abandoned his hand and therefore any chance of winning the pot and soon as he left the Poker Room (of his own accord)

Thanks for any insight…

Posted in Fouled Hands, Poker Room and Casino Mgmt Issues, Verbals, Gestures, & Actions: Bet Raise Fold, All-In Bets; Re-Opening Betting, Side-Pots, Split Pots, Official Rules & Guidelines, General, Showdowns & Pot Awarding, Empty Seats, Penalties, Clocks, Ejected Players, Incorrect Pot Awards, Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc | Print | 1 Comment »

August 4, 2008 by frenchflush.

Hello,

Here is again this typical situation:

Tournament - Two players left at the river: player A (on the left of the Dealer, place 1 or 2 and near the muck) raises … B takes is time and speaks a lot to try to guess A’s hand (but no move or no sound meaning a fold) … A imagining a fold (?) throws away his cards directly in the muck (!!!) … B pretend it’s a fold and claim for the pot (he had enought chips t pay the raise) … … … my ruling: because the amount was important for A (more than 50% of his stack) so for “the best interest of the game” and because for me a raiser can’t suddenly fold without being protected: I asked him for the exact cards and finded it quite quickly over the top of the muck: nearly the nuts! I gave him a warning (for playing out of turn creating a confusing situation) but exposed his hand alive while letting B decide to play free! Lot’s of complain from B … should I have killed A’s hand?

GG

Posted in Exposed Cards, Hand Discussion, Etc., Verbals, Gestures, & Actions: Bet Raise Fold, Fouled Hands, Official Rules & Guidelines, General, Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc, Showdowns & Pot Awarding, Etiquette, Behavior, Play Procedures & Penalties | Print | 8 Comments »

June 30, 2008 by Deadman.

Hello,

 There was a bit of a disagreement at a recent tournament regarding exposure of cards with action pending. Clearly the TDA rules and Robert’s Rules indicate this will not result in a dead hand. However, players at the table, at least two of which had just come back from the 2008 WSOP early events, stated that the WSOP has now indicated that any card exposed (1 or both) with action pending, will result in an immediate dead hand.

 Typically, I follow TDA and Robert’s Rules for the games I run, as I feel that the televised nature and scale of the WSOP creates some need for unique rulings in favor of viewership. Regardless, I searched the WSOP official site to verify this, but everything I found indicates that the WSOP subscribes to the standard TDA ruling, as listed below. Can anyone tell me if there is something I am missing, or if perhaps they called an “audible” for this year’s events and in fact they are now ruling prematurely exposed cards a dead hand?

 http://www.worldseriesofpoker.com/pdfs/wsop.tournament-rules.08.pdf

50. A player exposing his or her cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand. All players at the table are entitled to see the exposed card(s), if requested. A penalty may also be imposed if a player throws a card off the table, violates the one-player-to-a-hand rule or engages in similar behavior. Penalties will be invoked in cases of soft-play, abuse or disruptive behavior. All penalties will be imposed at Harrah’s sole and absolute discretion, in accordance with Rule No. 51.

51. In its sole and absolute discretion, Harrah’s may impose penalties that include verbal warnings and missed-hand penalties. A missed-hand penalty will be assessed as follows: The offender will miss one hand for each player at the table, including the offender, when the penalty is given, multiplied by the number of rounds specified in the penalty. Tournament staff can assess one-, two-, three- or four-round penalties or disqualification. Players who receive a missed-hand penalty must remain outside the designated tournament areas for the length of their penalty. The player must notify the tournament staff prior to returning to their seat. Repeat infractions are subject to escalating penalties up to disqualification.

Thanks so much,

Deadman

Posted in House Rules Different from Standard, Proposed New Rules, Exposed Cards, Hand Discussion, Etc., Fouled Hands, Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc, Official Rules & Guidelines, General, Etiquette, Behavior, Play Procedures & Penalties | Print | 4 Comments »