August 17, 2008 by lnufnu.

I was dealing a rather large Texas Hold’em tournament the other night and I ran into a huge mistake that I made.  The scenario was as follows:

Blinds were 25-50 (rather early in the tournament).  Player A (seat 9) was under-the-gun and has pocket Queens and raises to a total of 300.  Player in seat 10 folds and Player B (seat 1) calls (Player B has pocket 7’s).  Everyone else folds and player in seat 8 says to Player A, “Oh, you won the pot!”  I, as the dealer, listening to what player in seat 8 said and totally forgetting that player B had called, moved all the chips to player A and threw all the remaining cards into the muck pile.  Player B says, “Hey, I called.  Why did you throw the rest of the cards into the muck pile?”  Realizing I had made a huge mistake and that legal action had already taken place I took all the cards, including those that were in the original muck card pile (since there was no way that I was able to determine what cards were what), re-shuffled, and brought out a burn card and the flop.  The flop included a 7 and Player A’s Queens were cracked.  Player A went all in and, of course, Player B called.  Player A was eliminated from the tournament.

Was I correct, regardless of human error?  If not, please tell me the correct way to correct this “MAJOR MISTAKE!!!”

Posted in Exposed Cards, Hand Discussion, Etc., Fouled Decks, Missing Cards, etc., Verbals, Gestures, & Actions: Bet Raise Fold, Dealers Responsibilities, Errors, Partial Faults, Etc., Fouled Hands, Incorrect Pot Awards, Dealer Errors, Bad Flops, Etc., Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc, Chaos: Sloppy Mgmt of Tables & Tournament, Misdeals | Print | 1 Comment »

August 7, 2008 by talisman.

Hello All,

First post here and would love some insight…Do other poker rooms have a specific rule that covers players being at the table for the duration of a hand to be eligible to win a pot?

Scenario — No laughing now….(cash game 5/5 NL 100-500 spread)Player A allin preflop with 9d10c called by Player B with KcKs. Pot size is about $200.

Both hands are tabled and dealer deals flop (lets say rags 2d 5d 5h) at which point Player A decides he cannot win and leaves the poker pit, and then the casino (exit is close by)…

Unobservant dealer is not even aware that the player has left, deals the turn (a diamond) and the river (another diamond)…and then ships the pot to Player B at which point it is noticed there are 4 diamonds on the board and the raggedy Player A 9d10c wouldve won the pot!

We have no specific Poker rule that states what happens but there is a Poker etiquette policy (which may or may not have any legal standing)which states players must be at the table for the duration of a hand to be eligible to win the pot.

We do have a get out of jail rule which says “In the event that a situation is not covered under the rules of Poker, then the casino managament will make a fair and equitable decision that protects the integrity of the game of Poker.

So Question……Who would win the pot?? Does a casino have a responsibility to keep the money that “wouldve” been won by Player A and make every effort to locate him.

Poker Supervisor decision was to give the pot to the only eligible Player at the table in this case was Player B even though he had the losing hand per se…The argument was that Player A had abandoned his hand and therefore any chance of winning the pot and soon as he left the Poker Room (of his own accord)

Thanks for any insight…

Posted in Fouled Hands, Poker Room and Casino Mgmt Issues, Verbals, Gestures, & Actions: Bet Raise Fold, All-In Bets; Re-Opening Betting, Side-Pots, Split Pots, Official Rules & Guidelines, General, Showdowns & Pot Awarding, Empty Seats, Penalties, Clocks, Ejected Players, Incorrect Pot Awards, Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc | Print | 1 Comment »

May 31, 2008 by bill.buckley.

I was recently playing in a cash game where the players usually hold back on showing thier cards and qucikly muck if they are the losing hand.  I had a hand where I clearly got conterfited and elected to show my cards first when they were doing their normal holding back.   I flipped them over annoucing I had pocket 7s (not saying anything else about the hand).  The dealer picking up quickly the 7s were counterfited, without waiting to see if others would show thier hand announced my hand as  Queens and 8’s with a 7 kicker,  it appeared to me she was doing this to keep other players from volunteerly mucking thier hand.  I do not feel I did anything ethically wrong in annoucing my hand since I did not try in any way try to announce I won.  My question is what is the dealers responsiblity in this situation.  Should she have aided the other people in reading the hand before they showed, or waited until they either showed or mucked before specifying my actual hand.  Since I was conterfited and another player then showed thier card they out kicked me and won the bet. 

A related situation also happened on another day in a tournement.  Player A had A 7, Player B had A 3 the river was A Q 8 8 J (another counterfit situation - this time resulting in a split pot).  Player A showed his hand (A 7),   Player B then showed he had and A but not realizing  the counterfit situation left the other card turned face down, made a comment about being outkicked  and pushed them forwared and released them.  In this case it was other players that realized the counterfit situation and told player B to turn over the other card, Player B confused by the two or three players telling him this did nothing, but a third player (player C not in the hand) reached forword picked up player Bs downed card, showing it and announcing the split pot).  The dealer then commenced to divide up the pot and award it to both player A and player B, while player A was telling the dealer he did not think that  should be correct but that player As cards should be considered a muck.  After awarding the pot and starting to rifle the deck the dealer then acknowledge back to player A that he was probably right but it was too late to fix it.  However, most of the other players probably did not hear this since there was still a lot of discussion going on with player B to help him understand why it was a split pot.   What should the outcome of this hand been?

Thanks

Bill

Posted in Official Rules & Guidelines, General, Fouled Hands, Exposed Cards, Hand Discussion, Etc., Dealers Responsibilities, Errors, Partial Faults, Etc., Incorrect Pot Awards, Chaos: Sloppy Mgmt of Tables & Tournament, Etiquette, Behavior, Play Procedures & Penalties, Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc, Showdowns & Pot Awarding, Dealer Errors, Bad Flops, Etc. | Print | 8 Comments »

May 24, 2008 by coldtalk.

This has happened in cash game.Player A is all in on the flop and there is a two calls from B nad C.On turn B bets 100 euro and C raise 100.B calls and on the river B bets 100 again,C raise 400 and B fold.The flop is :A,2,4 turn is 5 and river is 8.When B folds C throw his cards in front of him but over the line and and one cards hit the burn cards but on the top of the burn cards,not mixed.After that player A asks for a fold and in moment dealer is telling the C that there is an another player in game and C says that he has not seen the player A cards because he did cover his cards with the money wanted to change in chips.First card that is in front of him C turns an it is a 3 and then the dealer turns the other card which is an 7.Still A wants to be declared as a fold and he refuse to open his cards.Inspector has decided after a video check and after a long talking and trying to split the main pot between two of the them,and A still insisting on fold and C waiting for a decision that is a fold and gave the pot to player A.Player C says that he has not seen his cards and that he has no reason to fold.

My opinion is that I will not give the pot to player A and ask for him to show the cards and if it is a winning hand than it is ok.I would like you an opinion of what would be a good decision.

Posted in Fouled Hands, Incorrect Pot Awards, Collusion, Cheating, Etc., Exposed Cards, Hand Discussion, Etc., Table Layouts, Betting Lines, Etc., Chaos: Sloppy Mgmt of Tables & Tournament, Showdowns & Pot Awarding, Bets, Min Raise, StringBet, Fwd Motion, Act Out-Of-Turn, Dealer Errors, Bad Flops, Etc., Etiquette, Behavior, Play Procedures & Penalties, Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc, Texas Holdem | Print | 2 Comments »

May 19, 2008 by frenchflush.

I know you will think: “what a big mess” but this situation really happened in a big club (used to host the WPT): the “Aviation Club de France” and during the “Grand Prix de Paris” (link here : http://www.aviationclubdefrance.com/home_uk.html).

OK to make it simple: after a Break they close a table … player A (with 25000) find a ticket sending him to a new place with 50000 … A just seats & start playing … he plays 4 hands during wich he eliminate player X (famous) wich had let’s say 40000 … player A have now 90000 … then player B is coming back (late but it’s his right) from the break and claim for this seat (in fact the organisators really made a mistake with the ticket of A: he should never have been moved to this 50000 place wich really was the place of B) … the three players (together with X) call for the floor (poor man lol) … after half an hour of decisions:   PLAYER X IS DECLARED ELIMINATED (I agree) - PLAYERS A&B ARE SENT TO THEIR ORIGINAL SEATS (25000 & 50000) but on TV nobody understood what became the 40000 of benefits … we understood it was divided between A & B (???) … On my opinion: I WOULD HAVE RETIRED THE 40000 FROM THE TOURNAMENT (X would be eliminated but A could’nt get profit from a move made with another one’s stack!)!

Any idea?

GG

Posted in Incorrect Pot Awards, Official Rules & Guidelines, General, Collusion, Cheating, Etc., Chip Counts of Pot & Opponents Stacks, Chaos: Sloppy Mgmt of Tables & Tournament, Start Chips, Blind Raising Structure, Tourney Timing, Color-Ups & Chip Races, Etiquette, Behavior, Play Procedures & Penalties, Registration, Buy-Ins, & Awards, Empty Seats, Penalties, Clocks, Ejected Players, Money & Chips | Print | 3 Comments »

May 16, 2008 by wiredaces14.

Just need some clarification here:   I would like the general ruling, but I will give you the specific situation: 2000/4000 blindsPlayer A raises to 12000Player B re-raises to 26000 (thinking from his judgement that is enough to put A all in)Player A puts all of his chips in the pot. Player B: shows his Aces without acting on the remaining 1000 chips (that he thought were already covered)Player A has the floor called in order to weasel out of his rough position in the hand. After the hand I was told that the WSOP will be killing hands in this instance this year, is this true?  Will this be TDA procedure as well? Or was this a fabrication? 

Posted in Fouled Hands, Exposed Cards, Hand Discussion, Etc., All-In Bets; Re-Opening Betting, Side-Pots, Split Pots, Incorrect Pot Awards, Showdowns & Pot Awarding, Chaos: Sloppy Mgmt of Tables & Tournament, Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc | Print | 3 Comments »

May 14, 2008 by herb.solo.

Hello there. I’m second floorman in an Austrian card room, and two days ago we had a tricky situation in a Hold’em cash-game.

Heads up on the river, Player A makes a bet, B calls, the dealer requests a showdown from A, A slowrolls, and says “i’ve got a pair of threes”. Before he shows his second card, player B shouts “Pair of Queens” and throws his hand into the Board.

Now Player A claims to have a flush, but B says, the Queen of clubs was his card, the Queen on the board was of spades. The dealer can’t remember, which queen was on the board.

So we have three errors in one hand, slowrolling from player A, throwing his wholecards into the board from B, and a dealer who can’t remember the board he dealt. Our ruling was to split the pot, but yesterday my boss said, we should have awarded the pot to one of the players and the dealer should have paid the same amount to the other player out of his pocket, as it’s his responsibility to remember the board.

What’s your opinion on this? And what penalties to you impose in a cash-game for slowrolling / smashing the pot or throwing cards into the board?

Posted in Incorrect Pot Awards, Fouled Hands, Exposed Cards, Hand Discussion, Etc., Chaos: Sloppy Mgmt of Tables & Tournament, Showdowns & Pot Awarding, Etiquette, Behavior, Play Procedures & Penalties, Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc, Dealer Errors, Bad Flops, Etc. | Print | 3 Comments »

May 8, 2008 by frenchflush.

Hello,

Let’s try to find a ”final” method to rule the dealer worst errors. With “dealer error” I mean the dealer IS THE REAL & ONLY RESPONSABLE WITH THE ERROR and no help can be find with players being “not clear” or things like that!

Let’s go with the famous exemple: on a 6000 pot at the river player A bets 1000 - player B takes is time to act (while doing absolutely NOTHING wrong or nothing meaning a call) - the dealer announce “player B calls” (OBVIOUS ERROR FROM HIM for absolutely unknown reason) - so player A shows is hand (very good but no nuts) - player B ask for the floor because he wanted to raise … !!! ….

We allready treated this case BUT … I really don’t agree with the way it is usually ruled and MORE AND MORE  I decide to SPLIT the pot when the errors ARE CLEARLY coming from the dealers … here is why:  

Doing the error the dealer is clearly penalizing both players who are absolutely innocent and the “usual” ruling on this case allways advantage A or B depending of their hand at this moment. Let’s be more clear:

The traditionnal ruling would be to say that because B can’t play anymore with the advantage of knowing A’s cards … B is declared as only calling … so imagines the two situations:

If B has the winning hand … well … let’s say it’s ok because we can suppose A would have fold (so nothing change for him) or would have called the raise (would had been worth for him) …

If A has the winning hand … terrible for B who can argument (sincerely) that he would have BLUFF RAISE tho save his head on that situation … I REALLY CAN’T STAND SAYING TO HIM THAT THE BETTING ROUND IS SUDDENLY STOPPED BECAUSE OF AN DEALER ERROR … TAKING AWAY FROM HIM ANY CHANCE TO WIN THE POT ANYMORE! And don’t tell me about a “minimum raise permitted”: it would never work here as a bluff raise! In the other hand you can answer me that A would have paid any bluff raise from B ! … well … so …

I split the pot (and do it more & more often when the errors come ONLY & CLEARLY from my dealers)!

I will wait for your opinions with the usual respect but you know what? My method please a lot’s of people right here (even if they may look like ”no decision from coward floor” for anyone … lol!).

 GG

Posted in Fouled Hands, House Rules Different from Standard, Fouled Decks, Missing Cards, etc., Official Rules & Guidelines, General, Incorrect Pot Awards, Dealer Errors, Bad Flops, Etc., Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc, Chaos: Sloppy Mgmt of Tables & Tournament, Misdeals | Print | 5 Comments »

April 18, 2008 by frenchflush.

Hello, let’s see about thoses classicals situations at the river:

1) A bets 500, B calls, A folds faces down immediatly (bluff), so B throw away his cards face down and go for the pot (both players agree this way): does the dealer must OBLIGE them to show the cards?

2) A bets 500, B calls, A folds faces down immediatly (bluff), B shows his cards and ask to see A’s cards (it’s his right for me … even if “rude”).

3) A bets 500, B calls, A shows his cards, B folds faces down (losing hand), A asks to see B’s cards (also his right for me … even if “rude”).

4) A bets 500, B calls, A says “full house”, B folds faces down (a flush) throwing his cards to the dealer that put it in the muck, B shows only a set (three of a kind … a sincere error from him), B says he had a flush … !? … (for me: error of the dealer who should have let the folded cards appart until the winner shows his cards and pot is pushed to him: so split!).

IN FACT THE QUESTION OF THOSES QUESTIONS SHOULD BE:

A) Do you accept a showdown looser to fold his cards faces down? 

B) If yes: do you oblige anyway the winner to show his cards if everyone else folded down at the showdown?

C) And do you keep the folded cards face down aside until the winner shows his cards and the pot is pushed to him without any contest from nobody?

GG 

Posted in Fouled Hands, Exposed Cards, Hand Discussion, Etc., All-In Bets; Re-Opening Betting, Side-Pots, Split Pots, Official Rules & Guidelines, General, Showdowns & Pot Awarding, Incorrect Pot Awards, Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc | Print | 3 Comments »

March 20, 2008 by frenchflush.

Hello,

Even if a great defender of the unification of the world poker rules, I’m a bad student in some points!

When ruling a tournament I use to make a speech to the players BEFORE IT STARTS to explain them what will be the SPECIAL RULES of the event. I really hate having too much spécial rules and love to stick to the TDA & RRs … but some home rules make it SO EASIER FOR EVERYBODY (staff & players) to work and unjoy the tournament.

Here is one I do:

The RRs says: (section 2 - house policies) in decision making:

3. The proper time to draw attention to a mistake is when it occurs or is first noticed. Any delay may affect the ruling.

5. A ruling may be made regarding a pot if it has been requested before the next deal starts (or before the game either ends or changes to another table). Otherwise, the result of a deal must stand. The first riffle of the shuffle marks the start for a deal.

6. If a pot has been incorrectly awarded and mingled with chips that were not in the pot, and the time limit for a ruling request given in the previous rule has been observed, management may determine how much was in the pot by reconstructing the betting, and then transfer that amount to the proper player.  

 WE CHANGE THAT TO THIS HOUSE TOURNAMENT RULE: A ruling may be made regarding a pot if it has been requested before the pot is AWARDED! So management NEVER have to determine how much was in the pot by reconstructing the betting, and NEVER have to transfer that amount to the proper player!

The raisons:

1) The time between the moment the pot is awarded and the moment the dealer starts shuffling the card is so little that this house rule do not affect the right of the player wanting to request for a ruling (he do not have anymore something like 15 seconds to react but only 13!).

2) So many time no one at the table was able to reconstruct the pot correctly (no the dealers, not the players) … going to big losses of time & complicated situations!

3) This home rule go in the same spirit than the rule about the delay to bet (betting & raising 12): “failure to stop the action before three or more players have acted behind you may cause you to lose the right to act” : PLAYERS HAVE RIGHTS BUT THEY MUST USE IT IN A LIMITED TIME!

Believe me: this rule changed the life of all my dealers & floor managers: THEY LOVE IT AND LOVE ME FOR USING IT!

Another close spirit house rule: Once all the chips of a betting round had been pushed in the CENTER POT by the dealer: the pot is definitively declared COMPLETED and no one can claim for a missing bet (even if obvious) if all the players still in the hand pretend to have paid their part (unless a gentleman declare he forgot to pay)!

THOSES ARE ONLY HOUSE RULES AND DO NOT PRETEND TO BE SOMETHING ELSE!

PS: about the time limit to act this exemple:

After the flop A is missed By B who open-bet with C, D and E calling him … ok A can’t “act” anymore … meaning he can’t even call and is out right?

TY for you help & opinion

GG

Posted in House Rules Different from Standard, Official Rules & Guidelines, General, Incorrect Pot Awards, Showdowns & Pot Awarding | Print | 2 Comments »