December 14, 2008 by ChicagoMike.

Interesting situation came up yesterday in the Kansas Championship. I was TD on the No-Limit mixed games tournament and in a round of No-Limit deuce-to-seven Kansas City Lowball the following happened:

 1) The starting hands were dealt out and the first round of betting was completed.

2) The dealer was forgetful and set the stub out of their hand on the table.

3) During some confusion either a mucked hand or some cards discarded (for draw replacement) out of sequence were hopelessly mixed into the stub. Further to that, when this dealer reached for the stub there was some confusion as to whether they may have inadvertently started mixing up the stub as though the round was over. All this occuring while players presumably were deciding which cards to toss.

4) When I was called over the top 15 or so of the stub cards looked pretty well intact, sitting on a less orderly set of cards.

5) I pointed to the “intact” set of cards and asked everyone if they had any doubt that this was indeed the original stub in it’s original order. Nobody was particularly certain that it was.

6) Add to this there were a few discards sitting away from the “stub mass”. When I asked the table about it, they were certain those were discards, but they were equally certain that at least some discards and/or mucked cards had found their way into this stub mass.

 Because we couldn’t ultimately be certain the correct original order of the stub I had decided to re-shuffle it. Correct?

The question in my mind was whether to add the small pile of known discards to the stub before the re-shuffle. What would you have done?

Ultimately, I did add ALL the discards to the stub… reason being that because some of the discards were already blended into it, that ALL the discards should be. If it had happened another way, where NONE of the discards had reached the stub, and the only thing had happened was a scrambling of the ORDER of the stub, I wouldn’t have added the discards, but because some discards were blended hopelessly into it, I decided it was better procedure to blend them all into it, re-shuffle, cut and deal the draw cards.

I haven’t found an exact rule on this… how would you have handled it ?

Posted in Fouled Decks, Missing Cards, etc., Fouled Hands, Lowball & Razz, Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc, Dealer Errors, Bad Flops, Etc. | Print | 1 Comment »

December 9, 2008 by Bravo228.

Rule #8 states that A player must be at his or her seat by the time all players have been dealt complete initial hands in order to have a live hand.  Players must be at their seat to call time.  So with that in mind, what does At Your Seat mean to you as a Tournament Director?  To me, it means the player must be sitting in their seat.  That way, there is no confusion as to what At Your Seat means.

Posted in Fouled Hands, Late Registration, Missing Players Etc, Official Rules & Guidelines, General, Empty Seats, Penalties, Clocks, Ejected Players, Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc, Seating & Moving Players | Print | 3 Comments »

December 2, 2008 by frenchflush.

Well … during a live freeroll tournament with NO DEALER (but a big sponsorized prize pool and a record 1240 players in day one we made resently) this situation happened:

Players A B & C involved in a 50,000 center pot (A all-in at the flop)

Players B & C involved in a 20,000 side pot (at the turn)

We are at the river:

B (150000) checks … C (100000) says “I’m all in!” … then after a short time muck his cards thinking B folded (?) and forgetting A (!) (remember: no dealer and the muck s in the middle of the table) … so B fold his (weak) hand (without touching the muck) pretending to win the side pot has the last player alive! So immediatly C announced his 2 cards to all the table and finded it into the muck (!?) B contested that and called for the “Floor”!

My decision was (I’m absolutely not sure to be right : that’s why I’m telling the story here):

C made 2 mistakes : mucking his hand and searching into the muck (in theory his hand is dead) but B should have called the floor before acting. Another detail: the hand of C was winning the side pot but A was winning the center pot.

Because the tournament of C was depending on my decision and because B didn’t called the floor : I declared C lost the side pot but could keep his extra all-in raise!

In other word: HOW THE HANDLE A PLAYER GOING ALL-IN AND MUCKING BEFORE ANY OPPONENT REACTION?

GG

Posted in All-In Bets; Re-Opening Betting, Side-Pots, Split Pots, Fouled Hands, Protecting Hand, Dealer Ruins Hand, Player Responsible, Incorrect Pot Awards, Chaos: Sloppy Mgmt of Tables & Tournament, Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc, Showdowns & Pot Awarding, Etiquette, Behavior, Play Procedures & Penalties | Print | 3 Comments »

November 19, 2008 by PurePoker.

Hi Guys,

been an avid reader of this blog for quite some time and thought I should post a couple of questions that I have run into over the last couple of months.

Guy in middle position declares All-In and places his remaining chips (about 10 pieces) on top of his cards and moves them towards the middle over the betting line. Guy on the Dealer button calls, Big-Blind calls as well, both have more chips. The bets are collected and the flop is layed out. While BB considers his options, suddenly the person all-in says: “Where are my cards?” The dealer realizes he has mucked the cards, because they layed on the wrong side of the betting line.
How would you rule?

Somebody on the table folds his cards so strongly, they fly into the cards of another player. The dealer cannot identify whoch cards where folded.
What is your ruling?

Somebody is playing aroung with his chips, holding a large amount in his hand. Suddenly he drops the chips in his hand and the fall into the stack of his neighbor. It is not possible to identify which chips belong to which player.
What should the TD do?

Thanks,
Denis
Pure Poker Lounge

Posted in Collusion, Cheating, Etc., Chip Counts of Pot & Opponents Stacks, Fouled Decks, Missing Cards, etc., Dealers Responsibilities, Errors, Partial Faults, Etc., Fouled Hands, All-In Bets; Re-Opening Betting, Side-Pots, Split Pots, Dealer Errors, Bad Flops, Etc., Etiquette, Behavior, Play Procedures & Penalties, Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc, Texas Holdem | Print | 2 Comments »

November 17, 2008 by pod_sp.

Guys help me out with this one.

The most bizarre situation happened to me recently at my regular freezeout game at my local casino. Mid tournament I was chip leader. I raise it up with KQsuited late position. I get one caller who had limped from early position. I noticed that this gentlemen had been drinking heavily and was quite intoxicated. He was also the only player at the table to have a very healthy stack besides myself. Flop comes 7 high, 2 diamonds. He checks, i bet, he calls. Im thinking im pretty much done with the hand. Turn pairs the 7 on the board. We both check. River comes a blank and he goes all-in for 8000, into a pot of about 7000 - but then IMMEDIATELY mucks his cards. He then reaches to retrieve his cards. I tell him his hand is dead but call the director for a ruling. He rules that because he pushed all his chips in and declared all-in whilst doing so before he mucked meant his hand was still in play. Annoyed at the ruling I ponder why he did it in the first place. I came to the conclusion that the way he played the hand and that he had been drinking he had a busted flush draw. I could afford a call and the pot was huge so I make the call with King high. He says “im done, im done” and again mucks his cards. I slam down my cards thinking I have made an amazing call with King high. He again retrieves his cards and shows he had pocket 6’s and his hand is allowed to stand. I ask the questions:

1. What is the ruling on him mucking his hand after declaring all-in?
2. What is the ruling on him mucking when I called his all-in the retrieving his winning hand?

Posted in All-In Bets; Re-Opening Betting, Side-Pots, Split Pots, Showdowns & Pot Awarding, Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc | Print | 7 Comments »

November 16, 2008 by Gitboxjoe.

Home game, on the river, Player A bets 1200. Player B calls. Player A states that he has a flush and Player B throws his hand into the muck face down. Player A then throws his hand into the muck and starts to collect the pot. Another player states at the table he wants to see the winning hand and the dealer seeing the winning hand was laid on top of the muck flips the 2 cards over too see that Player A was lying. Then Player B rifles through the muck to find his hand and flips over his winning hand. Everyone at the table states that Player B wins the hand. Player A states that once the hand is thrown into the muck the hand is dead, saying that he knew that Player B would throw his hand in the muck if he said that. Other than this being an etiquette issue, whats the ruling? House rules have always been Casino rules…..

Posted in Showdowns & Pot Awarding, Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc, Etiquette, Behavior, Play Procedures & Penalties | Print | 1 Comment »

October 17, 2008 by davethedealer.

This situation came up in a tournament i was running last night. It was the last hand before the break.  Self deal game so no house dealer. Just as the break had started Player A who was the dealer, said he had just awarded the pot to Player B, but just realised that he should have won the pot. Player A said he had KJ and Player B had J2 and that the board was 329 J 9. Therefore Player A should have won with 2 pair and a higher kicker.

Both players cards were turned face up at showdown. But Player A thinking he’d lost mucked all the cards and the board, although they didnt get mixed with the remaining stub. As the next hand hadnt started i felt i should try and reconstruct the hand in the best interests of the game. I worked out what the pot was  and figured if i could be 100% sure what the board was ,and that Player A had KJ and Player B had J2 then Player A should be awarded the pot. As in the rule  cards speak etc.

In the end i awarded the pot to Player B who had J2 because only one other person at the table would confirm that Player A had KJ. Either the other players at the table hadnt noticed what happened or didnt want to get involved.

I do believe Player A had KJ ,but without the other players at the table speaking up i felt i couldnt award him the pot without being 100% certain. I feel i made the correct ruling but id be grateful for your comments.

Posted in Dealers Responsibilities, Errors, Partial Faults, Etc., Protecting Hand, Dealer Ruins Hand, Player Responsible, Incorrect Pot Awards, Chaos: Sloppy Mgmt of Tables & Tournament, Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc, Showdowns & Pot Awarding, Dealer Errors, Bad Flops, Etc. | Print | 7 Comments »

September 29, 2008 by al_78.

Situation came up the other day. Dealer thought there was no one left in the hand and awarded the pot to player A ,not realising there was still  player B with cards. All the cards were mucked except for player B’s. It was said player B’s cards were not in full view as he had his hands over them. Who gets the pot?

Posted in Dealers Responsibilities, Errors, Partial Faults, Etc., Protecting Hand, Dealer Ruins Hand, Player Responsible, Fouled Hands, Chaos: Sloppy Mgmt of Tables & Tournament, Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc, Dealer Errors, Bad Flops, Etc. | Print | 2 Comments »

September 13, 2008 by dc_rocker.

Hello folks,

Situation: Play goes down to the river. Player A bets and B calls. A shows his cards and B throws in his hand on a clear intention to muck  a losing hand. Another player on the table who was dealt in asks to see player B’s hand.

The fundamental question here is: when is asking to see anybody else’s hand an abuse?

Etiquette aside, if both hands went to showdown,  technically any player who was dealt in can see the hands that were involved on that showdown. So when would you deny that right to a player? When is it an abuse? Being that such a valuable informtion during play, can it really be denied?

I wanna hear your inputs.

Thanks,

D.C.

BSOP - Brazilian Series of Poker

Posted in Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc, Etiquette, Behavior, Play Procedures & Penalties | Print | 6 Comments »

August 29, 2008 by frenchflush.

Hello,

Let’s try to find a “regular” solution about this kind of case (knowing we will allways have to make special decisions):

NLH tournament - 5 players at the turn - pot 700 - player A goes all-in for 500 - B, C & D folds - A (forgetting E) throws his cards faces down in the middle - the dealer reach it quickly before it touch anything (to save it & give it back to A) while E is saying “I call” and push his chips in the middle - E pretend that A folded & ask for the floor … E made absoluely nothing meaning a fold befora A made his mistake … for information : A has the winning hand at 100% (E is drawing dead) …

For me the important point is that A is all-in (if not it would be more simple) … but I hate to have a player eliminated on a stupid error … anyway I’m ready to listen for some of your straight opinion with respect & apply it: should the players be protected or put into their responsabilities of adults … this is the real question!).

Your opinion ?

Posted in All-In Bets; Re-Opening Betting, Side-Pots, Split Pots, Verbals, Gestures, & Actions: Bet Raise Fold, Official Rules & Guidelines, General, Showdowns & Pot Awarding, Heads Up Play, Mucking, Dead Hands, Etc, Bets, Min Raise, StringBet, Fwd Motion, Act Out-Of-Turn | Print | 2 Comments »